We need a new definition....

"Josh Welton" (watchtheprettylight)
12/05/2013 at 12:07 • Filed to: webster, camaro, mustang, challenger, merica

I think the last gen Mustang WAS pretty much the last muscle car: Big motor, small car, RWD, cheap/basic. The outgoing GT fit that mold: 3600lbs, 400+ hp, RWD(and a solid axle), and could be had close to 30k. The Challenger is too big to be a muscle car. The Camaro is closer, but still heavier and more $$.

"Advanced Muscle Car," to me at least, is an oxymoron.

Some want to call the new Mustang a sports car, but I've always read "sport car" and thought of a smaller car that handles, more than likely a 2 seater, has a well matched motor....a Mazda Miata, an older 911, a S2000.

And no, "Pony Car" just doesn't do it either. A term that encapsulates the New GT, the ZL1, the GT500, the SRT8s, the Camaro SS...

In America we need to define stuff. There needs to be another word for a car that's not really a muscle car but isn't really a sports car either. Maybe there is and I'm just missing it?

DISCUSSION (11)

BrtStlnd > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:10

I would argue that the Challenger is still the very definition of a muscle car, while the Camaro and Mustang keep leaning a bit towards the sports car genre. Not that it's bad either way...

TFen > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:11

"The Challenger is too big to be a muscle car."

Uhhh... Have you ever seen a muscle car?

Besides, the Mustang was never a muscle car, it's always been known as a pony car.

oldirtybootz > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:12

It's a pony car, it's always been a pony car. Muscle cars were intermediates with full size engines in them. The modern equivalent of an intermediate is a full size, so I count the Camaro, Challenger, Charger, and Chevy SS. Muscle cars weren't small. The orignal Mustang was compact based and the modern equivalent of a 60s compact would be a midsize car, which the Mustang fits IMHO. Thus it's a pony car.

When the Camaro moves to the smaller Alpha platform and Chrysler debuts ths smaller-than-LX Barracuda they'll be pony cars as well.

Gamecat235 > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:13

I disagree. We need less terms, not more. Every new definition for a vehicle brings more confusion and exceptions than previously existed.

I have had many discussions over the definition of "sports car", "super car", "wagon", "shooting brake", "hatchback", "muscle car", and even "coupe" and in the end, every last one of these definitions has exceptions, and no one can agree on what the label actually means, because they are all subjective, and everyone has their own take on what they actually mean. And when there are overlaps, the confusion grows.

What is the new Mustang? It's a Coupe, Fastback, Sport car (sporty car), Muscle Car (in GT trim and above - there will be above), Pony car (in V6 trim) with modern technology.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:14

Challenger is a muscle car through and trough, Pony Car still fits the bill for the Mustang and Camaro. Muscle Cars are mid sized coupes with massive engines, Pony Cars are smaller 2+2's and more nimble than the muscle cars.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:15

I still think all it takes to make a muscle car is putting the engine from the big car in the lineup into a small or midsize car, since that's all they ever really were.

Apparently, this makes me either a moron or insane or both.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:16

The last muscle car left its production line in 1988.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 12:16

"Too big to be a muscle car"

is a false premise.

Muscle cars, since their inception with the Pontiac GTO, have been mid-size to full size cars, especially big coupes with big engines.

Small cars with big engines are 'Pony cars', smaller than the full-sized muscle car hoss.

1965 Mustang was the first definition of the Pony car, and arguably all the newer ones are a bit big, both recent mustangs, and it's GM, Chrysler competitors.

If anything... the fact that the modern big-3 coupes, Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger, (encapsulating their variants), are more mid-to-full size muscle cars now than they ever were in the 60's and 70's... and have stepped up to replace the full-size cars that no longer exist, such as Fairlane, Galaxie, Gran Torino, Chevelle, Impala, other GM full-size coupes, as well as classic Charger coupe, GTX, and Coronet...

Those former full-size nameplates no longer exist, and Charger is now a sedan.

Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are not the smaller variants in a multi-coupe lineup... they are the main, arguably 'full size coupes' now. even if they aren't classified as full-size by interior volume... they are about as big of coupes as one would want... anything bigger would justify more doors, and more practicality.

Arguably perhaps the Genesis coupe could be considered a modern pony car, but it isn't THAT much smaller than Mustang. Infinity Q-whatever, and Audi, BMW, etc... are premium-brand sport coupes, so usually seen as a bit more premium than 'pony-car'.

IF BRZ/FRS had a bigger engine, it would be the new Pony car, as it is not a 2-seat sports car, but it is hard to consider it as a pony car if excuses have to be made for it's lack of power. A 300+hp H6 in that <3000lb. car would change the outlook entirely, and be lighter than the Genesis Coupe V6.

Corvette and Viper are powerful, and have tendencies in common with Muscle cars, but they are powerful two-seat sports cars, and generally in the $50K+ price point segment... premium cars, not generally mainstream/affordable to the average household income.

But 3600lbs is mid-sized anymore... especially for a V8 engine under the hood, and some option content in the car. GM, Infiniti, BMWs larger than 3/4 series, Chrysler LX/LY and others are heavier.

With the safety regulations on cars, for structural resilience in an accident, air-bags galore, and all sorts of integrated systems, it is amazing that cars like Mustangs are *Just* 3600lbs, and not closer to 4000.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
12/05/2013 at 12:34

Dude you just nailed it with this post.

Hit out of the park.

people need to remember in the 60's THIS WAS A MIDSIZE COUPE (and it's now mine and it barely fits in my garage):

Kinja'd!!!

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 13:02

I think this Mustang is awesome, for the simple fact that - as the front page article said - it is a revolutionary car. At least much more so than any generation after the first gen Mustangs. The gen 1 Mustang was a revolutionary concept, but after that the Mustang largely followed the same format. I'm glad Ford has significantly overhauled what it is to be a Mustang. While at the same time, coming up with a new concept is exactly what it is to be a Mustang. This Mustang does that much more so than the previous ones we've had.

Is it still a pony car? I think so. It is a modern interpretation of what a pony car should be. Ford has finally come up with an evolution of the concept, bringing it into this century with new tech that has (almost) never before made it into a Mustang. That's what the original Mustang was, something that hadn't been done before. Why should a new gen of Mustang not be allowed to do that. I certainly don't believe it has un-earned the right to be called a pony car. It's one sexy pony in my opinion.

quattrofl > Josh Welton
12/05/2013 at 15:51

Advanced Muscle Car = AMC you say?